TL;DR I will never return to C4 Winnipeg. The convention is horrible from start to finish.
Okay, so here’s the story of C4 Winnipeg 2017.
Not too long ago, before the advent of mainstream organizations taking over conventions, they were run by well-meaning but inexperienced volunteers. It was considered standard for there to be hiccups, miscommunications and confusion in every process from registration to teardown.
Nowadays, we’ve seen a better way: We’ve seen competence, organization, and we’ve experienced being treated with respect by people who know what they’re doing.
Which is why C4 Winnipeg was such an unpleasant shock.
I haven’t exhibited at C4 for must-be-more-than seven years now; my buddy Kyle says it was ten. I do remember, however, why I stopped: Back then, the show had poor attendance, was poorly run, and the staff were atrocious— to the point of LAUGHING AT VENDORS WHO GOT TRAPPED IN AN ELEVATOR FOR MORE THAN AN HOUR. Let that sink in: Laughing at people who are in crisis. Between that, low sales, and a general demeanour among the attendees that they didn’t really understand what a comic convention was, I dropped the show and haven’t been back before now.
I reasoned that seven to ten years was long enough for the show’s organization to improve, and so Kyle and I chose to share a table at the show as we thought it would be “low risk”: we were disastrously wrong.
Blanket statement that remained true for the entire weekend: No volunteer anywhere could answer any questions. They were confused, lost, disjointed, or had incorrect information. In fact, a Facebook friend of mine tried to attend on Saturday- and was given so many incorrect directions to registration that he gave up and left without entering the con! Think about that: a paying attendee, who wants to come in and spend his money, can’t even get directed to the proper entrance due to absolute incompetence and ignorance. How many people do you think gave up? How much in terms of potential earnings was lost due to stupidity? (Fortunately, my buddy chose to return on Sunday to buy from me, but only because he wanted to meet me and was motivated to do so!)
So- check-in. We only had hand luggage so we didn’t need the loading dock (which only had very limited spaces and had to maintain a very tight load-in load-out schedule because the venue simply could not handle large volumes). I thought we could simply take the escalator up to the third floor exhibit hall but no, we were shuffled into that same elevator from years ago; they had shoehorned, in fact bottlenecked, all vendors who weren’t using the loading dock freight elevator to cram themselves into the tiny, unreliable and ridiculously slow one. Imagine— making everyone line up for a single small elevator!
After that, I learned the locations of escalators and ignored any and all staff who attempted to direct me to the elevator. It was just ridiculous in the extreme.
At sign-in, they couldn’t find any record of me, or Kyle, and had all their information on large recipe cards. Not sure what I was filed under but they eventually found me after fifteen minutes of cross checking and verifying each of their piles. Has this show ever heard of a “computer?” Apparently not.
I was not given any “exhibitor’s package,” not even a map of the show floor. I had to hunt one down just to find my table. Too, the “Exhibitor Badges” were wristbands that were identical to the wristbands of regular 3-day con attendees. We were stopped twice from entering the exhibit hall because of this. To issue the exact same band to an exhibitor as to a regular attendee is the absolute nadir of stupidity.
As I was a last-minute exhibitor, I didn’t get a place in the Artist’s Alley, but rather in the Indie Gaming section— and I had to pay for a booth as opposed to a table. I expected a booth with curtains and a backdrop, but no— it was just a plain table, with no chairs. No. Chairs. We had to steal some from neighbouring tables in the gaming section. Higher price, but not what was advertised.
One hour after the show opened, I got a phone call from the AA organizer— asking where I was! I told her I was exactly where I was supposed to be, as listed in the con program and on the website. Ten minutes later she came around the corner to find me, apparently she had mixed up where I was supposed to be. I thought I was going to have to move, but she okayed the location. Meanwhile, an empty table sat between me and the next dealer so I was offered half of that table to make up for the lack of a booth.
I can’t say the location of my table was to blame for low sales, as many in the AA commiserated about lack of same, but this was far and away my worst show ever: I broke the hundred dollar mark on the last half of Sunday.
I can’t find the original hotel sign-up document, but our hotel was advertised as being one block away from the convention space. It was not. It was SIX blocks away, which precluded taking our luggage there unless we wanted to pay for a cab – in a city whose cab drivers were not motivated to provide any kind of service. So we left our bags behind our table and just took a change of clothes and toiletries in a backpack to walk to the hotel.
Saturday night, after the show, we were almost mugged— a man who had been gazing “nonchalantly” at the wall when we passed by fell in step behind us, causing me to pull my little rolly bag close to me, and only when Kyle made his box-cutter pocket knife plainly visible in his hand did the man veer off to study another wall. Downtown Winnipeg is not safe at night, is the moral of the story.
The program book, incidentally, did not include anything like a schedule for the exhibitors, or indeed autograph/photo times for the celebrities— it had an utterly illegible floor map, which was badly photocopied onto the page, and the whole booklet was a bad photocopy, utterly useless to convey information. You couldn’t have said “Ghetto convention, amateurish and unprofessional” any more clearly than with this document.
Extra “Ghetto” bonus was the bathroom– there was a pool of urine in the men’s washroom that was nearest to our table, and it was never cleaned the entire weekend. They couldn’t even be bothered to check their own washroom to keep it clean.
Finally, the show came to a close— we began to pack up at five p.m. on Sunday— and at 5:15 an announcement came over the loudspeaker saying to stop packing up, the show was open until six. I double checked the website— it read FIVE P.M. as the closing time. We doubled our tear-down speed and took the escalator down and out the door, jumping in the nearest cab. (We had tried to book cabs twice that day, and neither company was interested in our business or indeed in communicating clearly. Not con-related, but Winnipeg-relevant, so there’s that).
Winnipeg’s C4 show is, without exaggeration, the worst convention I have ever attended. I will not be returning and I urge all my fellow Artist Alley exhibitors to give this show a miss, both for your own financial well-being and for your mental health. (and, considering its location downtown, your safety as well!)
79 thoughts on “C4 Winnipeg: The Worst Convention I Have Ever Attended.”
I agree.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. C4 has been a disaster for more than a decade (I should know, I’ve gone to it some times on behalf of other organizations and conventions). No one, and I mean NO ONE on the staff understands the importance of LOGISTICS and COMMUNICATION. There are some half-assed rules on passes (of which there are some five+ different types, and some are wristbands, some are lanyard, NONE of which the volunteers seemed to be aware what to look for), the panels they run are a farce compared to even something that’s run out of a COMMUNITY CENTER (Props to JimCon who runs their convention in the Bronx, who have decent panels and are well attended). They change their setup sometimes literally DAY BEFORE/OF THE CONVENTION (which is ABSOLUTELY ludicrous for people who require an accurate map to find their booth!) Some volunteers know more than staff do, and yet they repeat the same farce every single year. That stupid North Side Loading Dock is an unforgivable nightmare. The South Side loading dock is much better as it literally empties out ONTO the convention floor but is almost ALWAYS occupied with BaseLAN and other stuff. I’m not even talking on the level of the ATTENDEES: On numerous occasions there were situations where props were permitted in, not checked, then minutes later they were required to be checked and some attendees were almost literally assaulted. No communication to the attendees on the stricter requirements to adhere to the prop rules, nor the reason why (the conclusive reasons why still remain to be seen), but nevertheless everything from a Camera Tripod, a Glue Gun, a Light Stand all had to be weapons tagged because of some idiocy on staff and inability to communicate with others, also the inability of paid security personnel to recognize what a weapon is and is not. Every year the convention degrades, and I will welcome the day that someone with some brains understands what a real convention is, what is required of it, and HOW TO ORGANIZE ONE. Until then, C4 still remains an overglorified toy show.
I apologize on behalf of the REST of the conventions of Winnipeg. Ai-Kon, KeyCon, Jim-Con (the Non-C4 Associated Conventions). C4 and its ilk are the worst that this city has to offer.
Yuriy
Winnipeg Comic-Con is the brains that understands what a real convention is and their inaugural convention in 2021 was a major hit with all volunteers and vendors being treated with dignity and respect. They are run by the people who run the Montreal Comic Con and as a volunteer, I can attest to their professionalism. C4 can be left behind in the anals of history as rightfully deserved.
Peter Ross
Have to agree.
We worked a gaming table in the games room for at least five years at C4.
One of the people running it, was so unreasonable, so draconian, that we discovered a little secret; If you tell one of the volunteers that “V said this was the deal” no matter how unreasonable, they’d simply do it. It was easier on them to simply accept a strange/unreasonable/wild claim, than to go ask her. She’s that bad to work with.
And the volunteers are so poorly treated, that most of the decent ones simply stay away. The ones they are able to keep are so poorly socialized, that they don’t even understand how badly they’re being treated.
Sadly, that seems to be a trend with Winnipeg conventions. They routinely make you pay for a membership, even if you’re running a panel, or two in some cases *ahem*.
People who are routinely invited to conventions all over Canada and the US, while not headliners, are given free weekend passes, that only makes sense. After all, what kind of cretin makes someone pay to come and make the convention better?
Well, in Winnipeg, that seems to be the norm. Which is one of the major reasons that the conventions here are such sad examples of Sci-fi/pop culture conventions.
Will this change? Probably not.
Want to see a decent con? Go elsewhere. Winnipeg is NOT where it’s at when it comes to Conventions.
VisualEyeCandy
This is the exact reason why I didn’t go this year it would of been my 8th year. I make more money at Halloween when I’m not there way easier for my client to find me because the convention center is so big some people have no idea how to get around. When I first started coming and setting up as body painting artist and spfx 7 years ago. I payed $125 for a table back in the day, now I pay 1200 for 3 tables and electricity no curtains or table covers. I supply all my own bells and whistles like my back drop and table covers with all my supplies. Every year I always make the best of the Comic Con event. Over all it’s an excellent experience and amazing people! The volunteers were wonderful an very helpful last year I have no clue about this year but last year was fun! The elevators are alway a problem but there is a freight elevator in the lower parking area that is super easy to use. Registration is alway frustrating because people have no patiences and have to got through 1000’s of forms. a computer is an excellent idea mabye someone can set that up for the crew at registration. I would come back if the 3 tables weren’t sold at such a high price. I do know if you register one day early you get electric for $125 instead of $175.
Kat
PREACH.
I’ve been to a handful of conventions in other cities, but I always attend C4 because I live in Winnipeg. Really, there’s no other reason I go. Every year the organizers can’t get their shit together. Their program is essentially non-existent. The convention as a whole is just a big shopping event, there’s nothing to do outside of that. You’re a convention! You need panels and things for people to do and see! I’m honestly amazed at how long C4 continues to go on for. People in the city are taking notice of how bad this convention truly is and that the organizers never learn from their mistakes. Locals have started conventions of their own so we can actually have something fun and well-run to look forward to.
Brenda
Honestly, I was actually so relieved when the Hubby and I strolled the convention floor on Sunday and I chatted with fellow artists and makers who mirrored your sentiments.
Not relieved they were as upset about poor treatment, a big sweeping change to floor plan after payments were received, the disorganization, poor communication (they took 4 months to reply to an email i had sent), an entire double sided row of jewelry vendors, and the agreed super shoddy maps, but that I stuck to my guns and gut feel and didn’t book a booth for my handmade geekery biz and avoided this exact suspected scenario.
To top it off this year entailed a 25% increase in booth fees and 15% in table fees for all that “service”.
The one thing that tips their hand is there is never a waiting list to get into C4 artist alley…ever wonder why?
As you said and as I’ve experienced, there are other shows, even in Manitoba, that train their volunteers well and treat their artists with respect (Aikon was wonderful) are organized and things run as smoothly as can be expected.
So try it at your own risk. But after you do, you will appreciate all the work other shows and volunteers do to make them run well.
Karen
That jewelry vendors all in a row was a complete travesty! You’d think anyone with a smidgen of retail experience would be smart enough to know that you don’t group similar products together…..that varying the type of vendors makes everything look more interesting to shoppers, increasing sales overall.
IvyPWpg1
Im sorry, for you cab experiance. The cab companies are more intrested in blocking uber from coming to winnipeg then customer service…. if you take the steps to come back to winnipeg feel free to message me i can be your guide to downtown winnipeg and safely get you from place to place… i am forwarding your article to City council and our mayor with hopes they do what it takes to make winnipeg safer for visitors like yourself…. i can not speak for C4 because i am not an official rep for them but i can tell you as a personal Assistant to a vendor it was SLOW this year, the worst in 4 years by my experiance. I do know a number of Con Regulars couldn’t afford to go this year due to a mass of Job losses across our province due to a shaky economy. The rest have become careful with money due to the fear of losing jobs and needing that extra money put aside just in case. There are many other reasons why attendance and purchases were low but the reason stated above are what i’m aware of. While im also not a rep of RBC Convention Center i will apologize on their behalf for the state of the washrooms and cleanliness of the building. I will also forward this article to the CEO in hopes the situation can be rectified for future events. Again im sorry for your experiance. I wish it could have been better and i do hope if you choose to return you will reach out to me to at least give you a better representation of our city and con.
Peace and love
Frances Matlock
Wpg Poison Ivy
Mandar
I had a staff badge with a comic con 2017 that had my groups name at the top and the word STAFF on it.
I attempted to get in with it like I had done all Friday and the volunteer stopped me at the gates and when I said “I’m staff.” She looked at me and slowly repeated the word “staaaaaffffff????” Back at me.
I was also walking through a public area before you enter the con to go outside and attempt to get food and was GRABBED AND HELD by a volunteer damanding to see my ticket or wristband. I pulled my arm away flashed my staff badge and forcefully said “Do. Not. Touch. Me!”
Kyle Rudge
That. Sounds. Awful. I’m so sorry you went through that. I really hope that experience did not turn you off from our city in general. If you ever do make it back out to Winnipeg, I’ll happily buy you a coffee (or a beer) to at least extend some form of welcome. There are other growing cons in our city that maybe you all will see fit to grace one day.
I’m not affiliated with C4 in any way. I’m just a Winnipeg geek who is pissed off with you.
twogargs
It’s hard to hear anything bad about one’s own city. For what it’s worth, I visit Winnipeg often with work and I love the people I meet, especially the Winnipeggers I work with. I love Stella’s (my fave restaurant) and I even have a Slurpee Capital of the World bumper sticker. I have enjoyed Winnipeg in the past. Unfortunately, my convention-related experiences this time were negative.
SicariusSeven
Wow that is something else. That is sad to hear. Also, holy cow to almost getting mugged! Glad you guys didn’t. I guess it shows how much the con values the exhibitors. I mean not surprising after I heard they screwed over Patrick Stewart that one year. He’ll never come back to Winnipeg now (at least not for them).
DBlackfyre
What’s the story with Patrick Stewart? I didn’t hear about this.
I know the story about Ray Park (Darth Maul) and C4, apparently Park cancelled weeks in advance for C4 2010. But C4 didn’t announced his cancellation until a day or two before the con. They made it sound like it was a last minute cancellation but it wasn’t. He confirmed that via twitter.
Most of us guessed why C4 didn’t announce the cancellation, because they didn’t want to lose the revenue from out of town attendees and their cancelled passes.
Whyntre
C4 screwed over Sir Patrick Stewart? I never heard that, what exactly happened, do you know?
Lisa
As someone who loves Winnipeg and cons I agree 100%. I haven’t been to ours for 2 years and that was just because there were 2 guest I wanted to see. 1 cancelled and the public was never actually notified. We went to ask what time their Q and A was and after being sent to a number of people, were told they were not even there. I’m in a wheelchair and the only elevator they had available was the wonderful one you are speaking of. It was always full and it took forever to get up. They need to bring in someone I reallllly want to see to get my money again.
SKYLER
I hear a lot of complaints about C4. There are a few other cons id much rather attend. The only good part of C4 was being able to see some people in person.
Neuf
I can’t speak for how the convention is run, but I can say that I’m tired of people saying how unsafe our downtown is. You had one guy follow you, and he didn’t end up actually doing anything?
Oh my! How dangerous!
The vast majority of people who are downtown daily (and nightly) never have any problems.
Ani
Agreed. I lived downtown and worked downtown and traveled through downtown at night alone by bus for years. Most of the weirdos aren’t interested in bothering anyone for anything more than some spare change. “Some guy didn’t assault me in downtown Winnipeg at night” isn’t really a complaint worth making.
Ryan
I have worked in the security industry for 18 years and I can tell you that Downtown winnipeg has some issues.
I deal with vagrants, druggies, the generally disenfranchised on a daily bases, they are kicked out of building after building eventually returning. They are often harmless but they can be violent and desperate for money and will lash out when confronted so assuming it’s safe is silly as somthing will happen to someone and that some one could be you.
David Scott Grouix
You just described any downtown. As someone who is proud to call Winnipeg home, and have spent most of my time living and working downtown I haven’t seen anything that I didn’t see in Toronto, or Montreal, or Calgary. Winnipeg has the same issues as any downtown core.
Darryl Wilson
Yeah, Winnipeg is essentially the New Jersey of Canada, sorry you had a terrible time, I know my time wasn’t that good either, but I found my fun where it counted.
David Scott Grouix
Winnipeg is not the New Jersey of Canada. This city has much to offer when it comes to music, the arts, the Royal Ballet, the museums and galleries, the festivals, the Forks, the restaurants….and so much more. A city is only what the person makes of it.
Angry c4 attendee
Gotta agree with you about C4. This year was so disorganized, even if you were a volunteer. My wife ended up having to sit at a table not doing what she was inirially told to do, was not allowed to leave that spot, nor could she do something to pass the time because she had to “represent the convention”. And heaven forbid she try to have any concerns addressed because the lady who we’ll just call V has a history of going queen bitch if you question anything.
From an attendee standpoint the info booklet was useless, the hours of operation were shit (8 hours on Saturday, and even less for Friday and Sunday), and there was nothing of interest to do, so I spent most of the time walking around the main room.
I have a lot of friends who attend C4, but not even they can convince me to return to that abysmal convention. I will just stick to Ai-kon and Fanquest from here on because the organizers aren’t so far up their own ass that they’re blinded.
CPenguin
Speaking of V…she sent out a “oh woe is me” type of message saying they only had 8 volunteers, about a week before the con.
I had met with M (the other higher up) who said I’d be perfect to run the c4 store (although more retail was the last thing i wanted to do..this was supposed to be a break from my dull retail job) about 4 months prior to the con…aside from a few bandcamp/Facebook messages, I never got any of the information I was supposed to get.
There was 2 “manditory” volunteer meet ups, at night during the week. I worked during one and was out of the city for the other. I was told it was ok..and to make it if I can. And then never heard a word after that. Guess they didn’t need volunteers that bad.
If it wasn’t for the one celebrity I can barely afford to see each year (not the cons fault on that one) I’d probably stop going.
A.S.
C4 sucks balls. Always has. Always will. I tried to forgive past grievances a few years back to try and hold a panel. I started to prepare months before asking guests, trying to communicate with C4 organizers, etc. I ended out having three well experienced comic retailers/professionals and two had to come from out of town. One set up at the con and had to arrange to have some family members there to watch his booth while in the panel. After trying to figure out how to get my pass into the convention for the day I drove in from my out of town location and did exactly what they said and…. no pass. I had to go in via the vendor access to get my pass at the vendor table by the vendor entrance. Of course not being a vendor I couldn’t enter that way, so I was told, so after a half hour they finally figured out a means for me to go through to the vendor table to get my pass and my other two guest passes.
So, you think okay, great everything should be fine now. Well, no one could tell me where the panels were no schedules were posted and no panels were being announced, including the Q &A panel for Billy Dee Williams, because supposedly some vendors were complaining about the the non-existent panel announcements. Oddly they had no problem with the announcements for Shatner, cosplay contests, larp, and wrestling every 15-20 minutes. So the few “panels” before mine were poorly attended and after asking around for an hour and a half when I could set up I was finally told 30 minutes before my panel that panels were cancelled.
So I wasted five months of work, $300 + dollars of my own money in gas and printing my own ads, and wasted two of the three guests time and the one guest’s family’s time. I was pissed and be of my guests was pissed. I refuse to go again. I did attend a couple of C4s small comic shows but that was only because I was helping a vendor because I refuse to have anything to do with them. They will not get one speck of my money ever again.
avematthew
Amen to the “have the ever heard of a computer” I don’t get what’s up with check-in. It’s possible that it’s because the WiFi is bad? I know I’ve had issues with it. One year we had the WiFi password and I was still forced to work off tethering to my phone, since I needed internet to do my job.
I’ve been part of running a large event at C4 several years (but not this year sadly) in working or head judging the Fusion 5K. There was some kind of difficulty every year that I was involved. Fusion is great, and I love the venue, but the con is difficult.
Last year they couldn’t figure out where to get me my wristband to get in, and didn’t have my name on a list when they really should have. The year before that we had to close down earlier than we’d been told by about an hour IIRC. Last year the fire alarm was going off for a long time and we couldn’t figure out if we had to evacuate. We were relatively quickly told what was going on, but the alarm kept going off to the point that we had to let people out of the tournament to rest their ears.
Fusion also partners with the con so entry into the tournament includes a free entry into the convention and despite this being a large event (like around 100 people) the staff selling tickets never seem to know about it, and a couple people every year have had to buy their pass twice for various reasons.
I always get the impression that the higher ups know what’s going on, but that the floor staff got no training because they never know anything and are generally useless. Any time we got the attention of a high level staff person our problems could get fixed – but it shouldn’t take that.
I used to live downtown and it mostly just seems scary. It’s more like a haunted house than Hostel.
Maggie
I will second Kyle Rudge’s comment. Winnipeg isn’t a terrible city – but the convention scene has been at the mercy of C4 for a lot of years, and it has always had a terrible reputation, in my experience. But it’s still the biggest con in town. There are some great non-C4 conventions (JimCon being one example I’m familiar with, Fanquest being another) which are smaller, but more people-oriented. Winnipeg is better than C4, and I hope you’ll have an opportunity to visit our city under better circumstances in the future.
Roger
i agree with you maggie, but con’s like jimcon and fanquest arent the answer, we need a better managed con overall. Jimcon is just board games and Fanquest is just cosplayers (biggest complaint i heard from those that attended their first event this year, they are slightly a different beast, vendors hated this event as nothing sold, many had zero sales completely). Either way, without getting the feedback back to C4, nothing will change. I can say that C4’s middlemanagement has changed so many times, its probably the upper management that needs to really take a look at the thread, although most of it is probably the same people commenting over and over, it’s still good feedback.
Bob Schmee
Yeah, Fanquest was such a waste for vendors in its first year. Pfft. Like, it was so bad they would NEVER sell out their vendor tables within a week of opening them up for sale for their 2nd year. Oh wait…they did sell out in a week. Maybe it wasn’t as bad as you “heard” then. 😉
DBlackfyre
I live in Winnipeg and haven’t attended C4 since 2012. I went this year because Dan Parent and Leonard Kirk were attending. And the only reason they came is because they are artists of the headliner guest Jay Baruchel’s publishing company. That’s the only reason I went.
The fact that C4 doesn’t seem to care about comics or artists is more than obvious. They keep inviting the same 5 artists every year. EVERY YEAR. Arthur Suydam, Rodney Ramos and many others have been there for almost 8 years in a row and same with Tommy Castillo, prior to his passing away. These are not local guys either, they have to be planed in and they take up numerous booths. I felt sorry for Jim Shooter at the con, he was a far more important Marvel guest than Suydam and yet they gave him a crappy plane wooden table and no signage, or even decent promotion. This is compared to Suydam getting 4 of those tables and huge banners to promote his crap.
They are so out of the loop when it comes to what comic fans want to see it’s ridiculous. And despite their claims that they have attendance that rivals the Calgary Expo, they never seem to bring in the same quantity or even quality of artist guests. Stan Lee and Todd McFarlane were headliner comic guests at Calgary this year. Who were the comic headliners at C4? They didn’t even make that clear! I guess it was Shooter and Suydam. Give me a break.
So despite the fact they call themselves a comic con, they don’t give a damn about comics or artists. The fact that you were treated so poorly and mismanaged is no surprise.
I too felt rather annoyed and angry at the incompetent volunteers at C4 this year. I was told on Friday when I purchased tickets at ticketmaster that I would have to go to a special booth with my ticketmaster ticket to get a 2 day wristband. So I return the next day and find a huge line outside. I was told by one of the volunteers that I had to wait in this line if I didn’t have a wristband. I said I bought my tickets at ticketmaster and was told about a booth I had to go to. She said no, and that all wristbands and mine included were to be picked up in this huge ass line. So 30 minutes later, almost 20 of which were outside in the cold, I finally get to the front and the security guy says I am in the wrong line and had to go to the booth all along. I was swearing and pissed the whole way to that booth.
C4 is a joke, as someone else said here, I hope another fan convention takes over.
Chichi
So sorry about that. Unfortunately everyone knows V to be quite a drama queen when things aren’t her way. Though I’m not a rep for anything, I apologize for the bad experience. To me, I only go for one day just to have fun with friends. When asking volunteers they really never know what to do or any directions. Though I sort of understand the strict security this year because a guy threatens to come and assault some cosplayers and threatened to do a shooting at the con. Which is now taken care of. But I’m just wishing C4 would organize better and change their staff now. They need newer and better people running the show tbh. But if not, I will always recommend Ai-Kon which is the best!
YRM
C4 has been mired with problems for years on account of the way the P family runs it every single year. The only reason they can still get away with it is due to the fact that they have deep pockets and good connections with celebrity agencies. As long as the P family holds control over C4, expect these problems to continue in the foreseeable future.
C4 is pretty much less of a convention and more of a trade show.
P.S., Neuf, while I understand your frustration with people badmouthing the safety of downtown Winnipeg, the author has a right to express his views and being sarcastic isn’t helping you or Winnipeg for that matter.
AgentVenom
C4 and the two people that run it are a total joke , it’s basically a big garage sale at best.
They lie about attendance and they bring in the WORST guests.
Mike and his ex wife Violet are terrible people who use the con to prop up they’re failing business and claim C4 is a non profit charity, what a bunch of bull shit.
Mike is a useless idiot who couldn’t hold down a real job if his life depended on it and Violet is a nut job with some stupid correspondence degree in parapsychology
who uses the con to promote her crappy
books.
I noticed Mike got rid of the pictures on his Facebook profile of himself on vacation with the barely 18 year old girls that worked at his lame store.
Con Goer
Had a great experience at this years con (from a buyer stand point). Also worked for Vendor selling goods there, was treated very good by the volunteers despite not having my work pass the lady gave me a 1 day pass to get to work no struggle. Although the people at the back were a complete mess and demanded i pay for a pass that was paid for in advanced for me, i refused to pay and told her to take me to my boss to work this out (as i was late because of the line up and getting the help i needed to get my pass). The lady corrected the mistake made by her workers and quickly apologized for the hassle they caused me and proceeded to chew out the workers that made the mistake. Other than that the Con was very enjoyable and i bought alot of great art from Artist alley.
Artistictype
I skipped c4 this year, mostly. I really really want to like this show. Really I do. Got lucky helping my friends load in and snuck up the escalators in the south building so I could avoid both the elevator of doom and its line. I didn’t get a table this year specifically because of the division of artists and makers. All the artists, makers and attendees could have told c4 that is the worst idea for a con. I could have told them. Anyone who has done a con with that docion could have told them that.
They always say the con has no money but they spend it all going to other conventions to scout talent. I’ve seen them there! That’s crap. That’s not what money should be used for promote the show. Put together some kind, any kind of programming. Use show funds to create a couple of paid volunteer positions so those people are the head people, who people can go to for answers. Also, if they went to so many shows, how did they not get feedback they dividing artist is something no one likes!!
Basically this show is a major disappointment. And on top of all it’s problems, there is some major issues with how the owners treat artist and vendors and their patrons, but that’s another story. The guests they are able to attract are for the most part just okay and repeats from ot many years ago.
Basically a lot needs to change before next year if the don’t want to alienate all of their regular vendors and artists. Thos show needs programming, organization, and above all, it needs to be sold to a bigger show.
AgentVenom
All one needs to do is look at Mikes Facebook page to find out were all the money is going.
Do you really think he takes all those vacations with the money he makes running Cobra collectibles?
If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
Without the money C4 brings in Raven/Cobra Collectibles would have been gone many years ago.
C4 has become an Atm card for the two terrible people that run it.
The people of winnipeg deserve better .
Whyntre
I’ve been volunteering there the last 7 years and I’ve noticed a few things. The volunteers get dumber/more useless each year and it’s not C4 unless something is wrong. There’s a reason I’m not directly volunteering with C4 anymore, I couldn’t take being yelled at by vendors because I couldn’t give them the right information, no matter who I asked I always got 5 different answers.
Crystal
I attended c4 for the first time in ages and I was not impressed to say the least.
I used to get a table in AA and I remember the horrifying experiences of trying to lug my stuff to my table. Back then i was paying less than 200 for the weekend for just a table and now I find out its 300. Hmmmm.
After reading your horrible experience and a few others, as well as not really enjoying the con, i think its safe to say until V is not running the show anymore, i wont return!
John Bishop
Disagree, vendor poles showed a 60% increase in sales from last year to this year (after the pole was done). Maybe what you are selling just wasnt what people wanted this year. This years ingress/egress was the fastest but the attendance was not record breaking like last year (70,000)… this year was only about 56,000 people. Sorry you had a terrible time, maybe change up what you are selling. What people want from year to year changes, you probably didnt have anything that people wanted to buy. Also, the location doesn’t matter, most cities convention centers are in their core. No one attempted to kill you, they just wanted change.
twogargs
Please show me these vendor polls. I’d like to see the numbers for myself.
AgentVenom
C4 has never had anything close to 70,000 or ever 56,000 for that matter.
That is total bull shit.
Just stop.
Mike and his ex wife Violet are habitual liars and has been lying about con attendance for years.
Why do you think Wizard World dumped this con the way they did?
John Bishop
incorrect, you have to go by ticketmaster sales… definitely hit those numbers last year, im sorry you disagree.
WinnipegGuy
There are a few different ways to count attendnace, with the usual counts being turnstile and unique guests.
GenCon, for instance, draws ~60,000 unique guests, and over ~200,000 based on turnstile. (i.e. a 3-day pass would get you counted 1 time on “unique”, and 3 times on turnstile).
So, based on that 60k number that GenCon draws – which books pretty much every hotel solid in a 5 mile radius, and stuffs the Indy complex to the gills – there is no chance that 60k is the number of “uniques” for Winnipeg. I even have a hard time seeing it as the turnstile count, tbh, having attended all weekend.
As for sales, what I’m hearing from people is that levels are similar or lower to last year.
WinnipegGuy
There are a few different ways to count attendnace, with the usual counts being turnstile and unique guests.
GenCon, for instance, draws ~60,000 unique guests, and over ~200,000 based on turnstile. (i.e. a 3-day pass would get you counted 1 time on “unique”, and 3 times on turnstile).
So, based on that 60k number that GenCon draws – which books pretty much every hotel solid in a 5 mile radius, and stuffs the Indy complex to the gills – there is no chance that 60k is the number of “uniques” for Winnipeg. I even have a hard time seeing it as the turnstile count, tbh, having attended all weekend.
As for sales, what I’m hearing from people is that levels are similar or lower to last year.
And to TwoGargs – sorry you had a crappy con. Downtown can be ok, but it’s still pretty sketchy. I often get done work around 11-12 at night down there, and I’m always keeping my eyes open to who is around.
twogargs
And where could one access those statistics? Does ticketmaster make them available on their site?
AgentVenom
I’ll never understand why C4 feels the need to lie about attendance numbers EVERY YEAR.
Nobody is buying it.
If C4 was actually getting the numbers they claim why is the guest list always so bad?
Please don’t start with the “non profit charity” bull shit.
You would think a con that gets 50,000 + as you claim would have no problem attracting top guests, but they don’t.
Most years it z list nobody’s .
I kind of feel bad for the guests having to sit there with little to no interest.
It’s almost as if the money is going somewhere other then back into the con.
“Cough” Cobra Collectibles “cough”
Lazy Leopard
I can tell you right now, I have not as a vendor/Artist been polled. I’m not sure where you are getting this information from for this year… But I was not polled I have not been polled in over 5 years of attending on how I did, and I can tell you that all the people around me that I talked to and all my friends that were there that were vending also did not see in increase in sales this year… it was about a 60% decrease if anything. Yes perhaps there were a few that boomed, but over all? No. It was a rough year. I could see a minor decrease sure but I have a fairly fluid exchange of colors patterns and general stock that people like as well as taking commissions for thing people want. There were no people coming down my isle, it was horribly set up sadly so that people tended to miss certain isles, I know I did it more than once and I lost vendors where I wanted to go back and buy things because I couldn’t find them again… and I was there all weekend.
So PLEASE show me these polls? Maybe a 60% increase in sales for C4 vendor spots? Because I can tell you I didn’t get any survey asking how I did.
Mizheekay
I couldn’t agree more. I’m not an exhibitor but was an attendee of the con for two years. The first year I went it was great. Organized, programs available great deals the whole shabang. The next year…. we had half naked cosplayers and hooters and passion party specialists. It had nothing to do with a Comic-Con. Then I signed up for a deluxe package which got me a bunch of things. Not only were they completely out of deluxe tickets and badges but they said come back in 30 mins to say they were out. I ended up getting a William Shatner party ticket ripped in half with some random persons initials on it saying deluxe pass. So had we been stopped we probably would have been kicked out because people woulda thought it was fake.
The programming was constantly changing to the point that I missed the panel I had to pay $10 for and never got to use. And the person I came and wanted to see was already gone. It was ridiculous. I ended up complaining publicly on their Facebook page because their website does not have a complaints tab.
They offered me free tickets to the next Comic-Con which would have been this year. But really why bother. I had to fork out $1000 for car rental, hotel and food and gas (because I didn’t have a vehicle at the time and most of my friends are not nerds) just to receive such shitty service.
I said this year I’m not even going back.
Lenora Rose
I’m a Winnipegger who loves Winnipeg, live near downtown and walk through it without feeling it is terribly unsafe, and I’m a geek who likes cons… and I do not go to C4. I have seen many visitors and cosplayers enjoy their time there, but only the ones who know what’s going on well enough not to need to listen to the volunteers or look for locations. Vendors, booths and artists (I’ve helped in an organization booth and was in artists alley once) are notoriously badly organized, and not terribly welcoming to newcomers. I think they forget that while the regular vendors are the bread and butter baseline, the new vendors are what keep people who have been 10 times before coming back.
I go occasionally to Keycon, which is a bit old school but generally a decent mix of literary, media and costume. I have heard good things about Ai-Kon, the anime convention, but have not gone, and have heard great things about Jim-Con, which is mostly tabletop gaming.
Sheldon
I have to completely agree. I came in from Toronto for this event and as soon as I landed in the city I was greeted with a stinky taxi driver. As soon as I got in the taxi the driver whipped around and said where to? And his breath smelled like garlic toast and coffee. I told him the address of my brothers place and he didn’t even know where it was hasnt he heard of gps? He didn’t even know how to spell the street name. The nerve of the driver to try and take off with my luggage too! Soon as I exited the taxi I went to grab my things and he tried to drive off and I had to throw my drink at his back window to stop him.
When I finally got to the convention centre I was greeted by a man standing outside. He was smoking a home rolled cigarette and was wearing ripped up jeans and his jacket was wet and he smelled like urin. He then asked me for some change and I offered a few sandwiches I brought to the event and he told me to F off where’s the security? Anyway I got into the event and I was bombarded by people asking me where my pass was even when it was in plain view of them! I had this one gentleman who was dressed like Spider-Man kick me in the back when I told him my costume was better wow friendly Manitoba right?
I asked a volunteer where Boston pizza was (apparently you can get to it without going outside) and she mumbled directions to me as she was walking quickly, so quickly she fell down a few steps and got up and continued walking like it didn’t even happen. I was in the gaming area as well and they need air freshener. There was this one gentleman who was extremely greasy and overweight wearing a tight superman t-shirt with a world of Warcraft hat on. He looked like he was having a good time as we all were trying to.
He would laugh so hard and obnoxiously his glasses would fall off and he would tend to pass gas at times and would try and cough to mask it. I haven’t smelled such a horrible gaming area in my life and I told staff and volunteer this and they said there’s nothing they can do. The least they could have done was air freshen the area. And the food tasted like it was made from card board boxes and grass. I give this “convention” a 0-10 and my brothers city 3-10 and that’s being generous on both views!
Oh How Right You Are
I don’t think you’re missing out at all by skipping out on C4 (or their smaller cons like HorrorCon, Toy Expo, etc.). It’s basically just a vendor room with a few guests at this point. I sincerely hope one day one of the smaller & newer cons gets a bit bigger and is worthy of your coming back to Winnipeg. FanQuest looks promising so far – but they are only in their second year as a con.
I agree with you about not feeling safe walking around downtown at night. I live here not far from the city center (and used to live downtown) and I don’t always feel safe there myself. I’m sorry they lied to you about the hotel being so close to the convention centre. If you do come back some day the Delta Hotel is attached to the convention centre via a skywalk which makes that whole experience MUCH better honestly. Fewer chances to feel unsafe at night that way imho and makes taking things back & forth from hotel to con a bit less stressful.
C4 overall just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I went this year after several years of not attending & I was reminded why I stopped going in the first place. Such a badly run convention with little to no communication between volunteers/staff there. Shady practices. Not worth the stress & anxiety of it all.
Fingers crossed nobody from C4 harasses you over this. They’ve been known to do that. They try so hard to erase all the negatives about the con at least on their FB. I believe these are issues that everyone who’s thinking of going to C4 should be aware of.
Thanks for sharing.
Blake
I went to C4 a few years ago tonsipport some friends who were echo I there. I have to admit I wasn’t impress with the overall show. There truly seemed to be a lack of organisation. I’m glad that there is new Cons showing up in Winnipeg like Fan Quest that have a focus on the people coming not the money they can pull out of them.
Laurie
Keycon has been fulfilling the “focus on the people coming, not the money they can pull out of them” mandate for 34 years. 🙂
Karen
Keycon does have a lot of programming, especially panels, but from a vendor point of view it’s also got issues.
-Not enough traffic walking into the sales room, especially since the vendors were moved to another floor and combined with art show. When the vendors were near the restaurant, there were more “walk ins”. It may be that attendance is declining, as the membership ages and it’s not attracting the younger people.
– Very poor layout, spots are not taped out, many spots end up being a different size than promised, tables are not included in price (but used to be). People end up being placed “willynilly” as they arrive, sometimes in awful cramped spots, I always feel sorry for the later arrivals who get screwed. Why can’t someone actually measure the room and do a proper measured layout on paper, and then tape out the room to match the guide?
– Inconsistent information for times the vendors room is open – website, printed guide, and posted signs often have conflicting info. and this has happened multiple years.
I will say that the customers and those that just stopped by to chat were pleasant and fun and the reason I booked even when a previous years sales weren’t great. Volunteers do care and try to be helpful, but there needs to be more competence at the top. It may be that since Keycon is not run for profit, that there is a shortage of people willing to put in those volunteer hours needed on the organizing front.
One person I know was involved a few years ago, and vowed “never again”, because she found the people she dealt with too stuck in their ways, unwilling to listen to new ideas that might draw more attendance.
Winnipegger
How would you fix C4?
Brenda
C4 PLEASE
-have a professional package on the website (similar to Calgary) for applying as a exhibitor, artist, community organization
-divide the convention floor into visibly and physically differentiated areas so attendees know when they are moving from exhibitor into artist alley space. This may mean having an archway or decoration, maybe something created by volunteers or artists welcoming fans to the alley.
-do not place all of the same [jewelry] makers in the same rows. When walking the floor this was a real turn off as a retail merchandising strategy for your poor makers. I would not attend a show that did this to its paying vendors/makers.
-BE ORGANIZED stop changing hours last minute or day of the event
-Reply to emails in 1-3 days time, not 4 months time
-keep computer records on the cloud, not paper records or on one computer hard drive
-have volunteers by elevators suggesting that elevators are for fans with disabilities and strollers, if you are able please use stairs. As someone with a disability 15-30 min wait for an elevator is crazy
-prepair your volunteers, have handouts for them with FAQ’S they can reference, plan a team leader for each area
-sending out a surveymonkey to artists after, like the other cons (ai-kon, keycon) to get feedback and then aim to make improvements. I always had to send my own feedback, never got asked or polled first in 2015 or 2016.
Some of these suggestions I have previously made to C4, and have never seen them come to pass. I will be emailing this list to C4 as well as having it posted here as I do believe things can only improve from honest feedback.
A.S.
Before M decided to go big, and for a few after, he would ask vendors what would make the show better. He would never do anything any vendor suggested. As soon as he asks this he tunes out. V is the same.
twogargs
I wouldn’t. I’m an exhibitor, not a convention runner, so I just move on to other conventions, and put my energy towards them. If a show is good I give feedback; when a show is as bad as C4 was, I feel the flaws are too fundamentally entrenched to be improved by a few suggestions.
Roger
this thread really isnt helpful to anyone because its just full of people complaining (send them your feedback).
I had a great year this year myself, ingress/egress went super smoothly unlike previous years. I hit all the smaller conventions prior to this one and found out what sold well and then stocked up on that (as it changes year to year). Over 12,000 in sales, i can’t complain, up about 40% from last year.
People need to remember that sales are NOT the responsibility of the convention, that is your own prerogative. If what you are selling isnt moving, then its really your own fault. A convention is just an avenue to sell, if no one wants what you’re selling, deal with it.
I can’t speak for all artists, but many had lower sales this year (the ones i know personally), but that is how it is, no one wanted that type of stuff this year. That isnt the con’s issue, that is your own.
I agree, they need to change some things for sure, but it is what it is. My answer, don’t go, others will fill your spot. People who keep going, yet keep complaining arent helping, boycotting is the only answer, stop going if you don’t like it… so that they can see change is needed.
Smash
And what is it you sell, exactly? T shirts and collectibles and licensed material? It’s literally apples and oranges compared to a small independent artist trying to come here and sell original work versus licensed properties that have the benefit of brand recognition. The two should really not be on the same floor/level, to be honest, and artists (myself personally) saw much better sales when the indies were in a smaller space and not directly attempting to dollar-compete with huge mega-vendors.
Connie deadlive
As an attendee I was less impressed than previous years. I feel there wasn’t as much 2 see. The admission price for Saturday, ($37/ person), almost double was ridiculous. I feel sorry for all the vendors who struggle to succeed at this Comic Con.
Curtis Alvin Kopeschny
The admission fee has indeed become ridiculous. I’m not sure how they can charge that and keep a straight face. It’s beyond insane.
Smash
I agree that C4 is poorly run and has many bad logistical and personnel issues that make selling at this convention profit- and human resources-prohibitive. There are more than a fair share of local anecdotal evidence here that I am nodding along with.
However, Winnipeg is a solid city, and lumping in a potential mugging and the author’s inability to Google Map their hotel isn’t…the city’s fault. I’ve lived in Toronto and traveled extensively for conventions and conferences, and every city has its quirks in addition to weird local interactions. Winnipeg, in truth, has an extremely strong and vibrant artistic/comic/nerd community that is worthy of exploring. C4 just happens to take up all the space and offer little in return for that.
Other conventions worth your time? Ai-Kon, our local anime convention, is quite strong. Their programming game is on point and the vendor’s room is always varied, interesting, and above all promotes local. I’ve been attending this show on and off for fourteen years.
Prairie Comics Festival will be in its 3rd year in 2018, and takes place at the Millennium Library. Modelled after TCAF, it is comic, creator, and industry focused, and is growing rapidly, with a solid slate of guests for 2018.
FanQuest is just starting, but most of us feel it is an event worth supporting/growing considering how C4 is imploding on itself year by year.
In any case, I urge anyone considering coming to Winnipeg for a convention to look into these instead, and not to discount this community entirely based on one limping behemoth of a convention.
Laurie
Keycon, which will be celebrating its 35th year in 2018, is also a great convention to check out. It has multiple tracks of programming every day, a Saturday night costume competition and social, a whole floor full of themed hospitality suites, and so much more to offer.
Gru Marcus
The pitfalls of the c4 organizers with regards to the con. Is something that my artists and booth friends notice every year. So much so that its become an annual tradition to recount the snafu’s of the past con over dinner on the last day. This year was no different. I support local cons, always will. But C4 is a gong show. I keep hoping they’ll get their act together but it hasn’t happened yet. Compared to other venues I’ve gone too such as Calgary. There is no comparison. Something has to change. Winnipeggers deserve better. I’m sorry to hear about your horrid experience. And as one of the members of the rich geek community in the Peg. I apologize.
1ajs
can you do many of us winnipegers a favour and send your opinion to the mayor of this snafu especialy the taxi stupidity….. @Mayor_Bowman < his twitter please please! the taxi stuff is a big issue that needs a kick in the ass from some outside voices in the main stream….
L
The Belly dancers who have performed FOR FREE?! They were informed that they had to pay to enter (this was a couple of years ago.
Very unprofessional.
Blaine Perih
I have only been a few times. Last time was when Ray Parks was supposed to come. Thought ok my son is old enough he loves Star Wars this would be cool. Get tickets go upstairs and guess what? That’s where they said Ray Parks is a no show due to other commitments. If I had traveled the 330 km to just go to this I would have been pissed off. At that I was because I thought like I said cool for my son to meet him. I have been to a few in the past. David Prowse was so so. John Dr Lancie same. Jeremy Bulloch was super. My son was roughly 2 when he was there and was good enough to pose with my son. Levar Burton was another super given though he was very busy took a little bit of time to pose for some pics
Mark
Ai-kon is a thousand times better.
Tthere are far more things to see and it goes nonstop from opening friday to closing saturday. A lot more people show up as well. However it is in the same venue, so obviously the Market/artist room has a closing time.
They also upgraded their books from paper to plastic and you get a bunch of coupons too for a whole bunch of places. There are a number of really dedicated staff members who actually have more competence, however you will likely see a few from the C4 con. It is likely you had the worst luck of working with the dumbest of the lot this year.
Anyway the prices are lower and people tend to bring their own decorations for their tables to make everything actually look good. If you didn’t bring at least a tablecloth or something fancy, then who else are you going to blame for the table looking so plain and barren? the table itself?
Anyway, The city is indeed shite and no one actually wants to live here, but Greg Ayres shows up every year as well as a whole bunch of other voice actors who will sign your tits for free if you ask them to because they are so damn nice. Seriously the autographs are free when it comes to voice actors and they have tons of panels where they talk to their fans about all kinds of things. Greg even hosts the Saturday night rave, and our Cosplay content is a hundred times more intense than C4. And if you want to get a hotel, there is infact one literally across the street. There is a skywalk connecting the two buildings too, so just book a room in advance.
And forget your lame ass wristbands because Ai-kon has color coded and labeled badges. These guys dont dick around like those daft fools at C4.
Downside is Ticketmaster no longer sells tickets for the convention center, so you either buy them on the website, or at the con. Always buy 4 months in advance when they are the cheapest and on sale between 30-50$ for the weekend, unlike C4 who will charge you 60$ or more for the weekend.
B
We had a booth in the indie game section a few years ago. It was one of the worst (and first) con experiences we’ve had. Just to name a few :
1) We were told the tables would be free. Upon arrival we were told we’ve have to pay some small amount ($50 if I recall correctly?) and supply some Steam codes. Not a big deal, but we were given no notice of this.
2) The tables in the indie game section were first come first serve. We ended up getting a nice table, right in the middle of the line of tables. We were told on setup day that the only people present were staff and other exhibitors and that we should leave our stuff on the table over night (we were assured numerous times that everything would be safe. We left all our giveaway items on the table that we were raffling off for free. The following day we came in for showtime, and someone moved all the items on our nicely set up table and dumped it on a table in the far back corner of the room. To add icing on the cake, nearly all but 3 or 4 of our raffle giveaway items were all stolen (shirts, hats, baggies, Steam codes, etc).
3) Other exhibitors could be overheard complaining about our booth (it was our first con and our setup wasn’t the best admittedly). The attendees were phenomenal and incredible throughout! Myself and my colleagues overhead this, and many attendee’s would approach us and mention that other exhibitors were bad-mouthing us. This isn’t a knock against C4 itself, but it certainly left a bad taste in our mouth about the Winnipeg industry. I guess if your new to the industry and new to the con scene, your a waste of time.
For an event that’s supposed to be all about celebrating the ‘creative’ industry (games, art, etc), we found it to be very unprofessional and very un-inviting.
NEVER AGAIN!
Kim Brennan Arts
Although every convention has its hiccups and I’m sorry you seem to have found several of them, I’ve always had a great time at this convention! I’m busy from 8 in the morning till the end of the convention and then go home and still take clients for Halloween and it’s pretty profitable 4 body painting, makeup and the other body Services I provide. Most conventions nowadays do not include drape and hanging or anything other than a table and some chairs. Any electricity is per vendor and has to go through the convention center. I’ve always found the staff and management extremely accommodating but as with any volunteers at any event, they are volunteers so there’s bound to be some bad apples. And if that’s the table I think it is, no one was set up on it for the weekend when I looked. I’m sorry you had a bad experience but most of the issues have more to do with the venue then the convention as far as I can tell. I’m so sorry it didn’t work out well for you and I wish you all the best, but I’m afraid I completely disagree with your assessment. I hope your future conventions work out better for you. Waiting in Minneapolis for my plane to get to Connecticut and then St Louis after that so I understand convention life LOL
Laura
You are awesome. My daughter always loves seeing you at c4. Nice to see such a positive attitude and it comes through meeting you in person. Keep up the great work
John Smith, from The North
That’s why it’s “Friendly Manitoba” not “Competent Manitoba” on the license plates. Don’t let the airport food poison you on the way out.